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End of Season 33 second part

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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Will Mackenzie » 11/08/2018, 12:44

I can understand why this is contentious, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot, but my attitude on this one is that it should genuinely contribute towards regulating the getting-out-of-control prices being requested for youngsters, and help generally improve competitiveness but having younger players worth less and more experienced players worth more.

I like being able to keep track of all my all my U21s’ games, goals, assists and saves stats, but not at the cost of having the transfer market be all about U21s or players whose stats are inflated by U21 and Reserve games. I couldn’t sell starting-11 Prem-quality 28-29yo SOA 52-54 players over the last few weeks, which is mad, simply because they’re not young. Maybe this will help reset the equilibrium in time, which is what it seems everyone has been crying out for (a more realistic / active transfer market).
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby LukeMorrison » 11/08/2018, 13:26

Will Mackenzie wrote:I can understand why this is contentious, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot, but my attitude on this one is that it should genuinely contribute towards regulating the getting-out-of-control prices being requested for youngsters, and help generally improve competitiveness but having younger players worth less and more experienced players worth more.

I like being able to keep track of all my all my U21s’ games, goals, assists and saves stats, but not at the cost of having the transfer market be all about U21s or players whose stats are inflated by U21 and Reserve games. I couldn’t sell starting-11 Prem-quality 28-29yo SOA 52-54 players over the last few weeks, which is mad, simply because they’re not young. Maybe this will help reset the equilibrium in time, which is what it seems everyone has been crying out for (a more realistic / active transfer market).



Ok that’s interesting and I totally disagree and for a number of reasons.

Money is power in this game, the more you have the more chance you get to find that next superstar. So that being said managers are not stupid they know this. I believe the reason why managers do not want to buy over 28s is purely because it’s dead money and you can’t get it back, so when it comes to spending a managers money, who could be on a small budget they will only invest in something they can potential get there money back.

Also, as everyone knows the game is built around 3 very key positions. Goalkeeper and both AMs, you could even include an LM. This for me also has a negative impact on the transfer market, purely because if you have good players in those positions you don’t need anything else.

In the modern world it’s exactly the same. 2 seasons ago no money in the world would of bought Ronaldo but now he is getting old they have sold him, it’s the nature of the beast.

Their are 3 managers on here with the same philosophy one is me, second is Elliot and the third is Will (could be more). We try to move on our 30+ players. My reason for this is because I don’t want old players in my squad I want to bring the players through and watch them progress, rinse and repeat.

Some bargains to be had once they hit over 30, I have just given away one the best RDs in the game because he is 35.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Will Mackenzie » 11/08/2018, 14:02

That's a very good summary of all the problems, Luke, but I think what you're really doing is making my case for me, rather than disagreeing with my point. It seems like you're petitioning to keep the game the same way as it is, while acknowledging the problems it has with player values and an over-emphasis on youth players. The point of these changes is to try and reverse the position where 16-17yos are going for the same price as SOA 54 28yos, to use a recent example that's I've been trying to deal with, but also seems clear to me from just about every forum sale.

If you want to buy a young team now and build it up, despite young (16-20yo) players being nowhere near starter quality, the cost is astronomical (you're being asked to pay for the player they might be in 5-7 seasons), and it means that smaller teams can't ever improve themselves. Teams not in the Prem can buy older players cheaply but it's very short-term, which will absolutely affect the new managers we so desperately coming into the league, because they can't get the team they've taken over out of the 'funk' that is an ageing team and an inability to buy youngsters.

If I were planning out, from scratch, how this game should be, I'd want the most valuable/expensive players to be 26-30yo's with a high SOA, experience and ability. That not only represents real life but it's a sensible economy, with players being cheaper at the start of their career (which encourages managers to bring them in and build them up for a reward) and at the end of their career (a quick fix). That's not the way the game is and so I'm in favour of this change.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Kevin Beck » 11/08/2018, 14:06

Do Reserve games come under non-competitive and therefore those stats will no longer be saved? That would be a shame from a personal point of view as I as find it more likely to conclude deals for reserve players as very few managers are prepared to sell their first teamers.

My reserve team is my youth team - 1. we can’t carry experienced reserves financially and 2. it’s the only way I have of developing our youngsters and seeing them against reserve season pros is of great interest.

I don’t take part in the Youth Tournament so don’t hold an opinion on those stats being saved. However, just like C Level players, it’s easy to see players who have benefitted from those less competitive environments, so I’d be surprised if managed are ‘conned’ by those stats.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby billy rose » 11/08/2018, 14:20

Will Mackenzie wrote:That's a very good summary of all the problems, Luke, but I think what you're really doing is making my case for me, rather than disagreeing with my point. It seems like you're petitioning to keep the game the same way as it is, while acknowledging the problems it has with player values and an over-emphasis on youth players. The point of these changes is to try and reverse the position where 16-17yos are going for the same price as SOA 54 28yos, to use a recent example that's I've been trying to deal with, but also seems clear to me from just about every forum sale.

If you want to buy a young team now and build it up, despite young (16-20yo) players being nowhere near starter quality, the cost is astronomical (you're being asked to pay for the player they might be in 5-7 seasons), and it means that smaller teams can't ever improve themselves. Teams not in the Prem can buy older players cheaply but it's very short-term, which will absolutely affect the new managers we so desperately coming into the league, because they can't get the team they've taken over out of the 'funk' that is an ageing team and an inability to buy youngsters.

If I were planning out, from scratch, how this game should be, I'd want the most valuable/expensive players to be 26-30yo's with a high SOA, experience and ability. That not only represents real life but it's a sensible economy, with players being cheaper at the start of their career (which encourages managers to bring them in and build them up for a reward) and at the end of their career (a quick fix). That's not the way the game is and so I'm in favour of this change.


What Will said no stats for friendlies or U21 comp but there should be stats for league reserve games.

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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby LukeMorrison » 11/08/2018, 15:00

Firstly I just want to say I’m not trying to cause an arguement or purposely offend anyone, I just feel very passionate about this as you can probably tell I’ve never been so active :D

What I believe is you will always have your Jose Mourinho’s who want a ready made player for instant success and you will always have your Arsene Wengers who want to build a foundation and see the youth come up through the ranks.

No matter what changes the game makes, there will always be a bias in the market, whether that be old, middle age or young.

This change won’t make old players more desirable, it will make the youth market dead as well as the old and everyone will want ready made middle age players.

Also I do agree that the youth market is over priced but this is perfect for new managers. They can sell there youth academy promotions to gain cash to strengthen the squad. I will never buy over aged players unless I feel they are needed. The last old player I bought was 32 years old from you Will and I paid 40m for that 32 year old and why did I pay that much and go against my philosophy? Because he was top class and that’s the only way managers will sell there over 30s.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Will Mackenzie » 11/08/2018, 16:30

LukeMorrison wrote:This change won’t make old players more desirable, it will make the youth market dead as well as the old and everyone will want ready made middle age players.


I think we’re saying the same thing, just with different levels of optimism. I think it’s a good thing youth players become more affordable for all and that middle-aged players become the most valuable commodity. And I say this as a manager whose favourite part of the game is the U21 Comp, but I want to make the game more accessible and easier to play, to encourage more members (especially when the new site drops), and more competitive.

Mega-symantics here but Martic was 31 when you bought him last season ;) Totally agreee there should always be a premium for older AMs who have his experience and goals, and who can clearly score in the Prem, and who are very unlikely to retire when they are transferred aged 31. We’re on the same side of this one too.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby LukeMorrison » 11/08/2018, 17:05

No I like the way it is.

It will not be easier for new managers when they see at the end of the season all the stats are gone and they should of kept a record.

It will not be easier for managers when they don’t know what they are buying.

I had a mate join and stayed for 2 days and then didn’t come back. When I asked him why you left he said it’s stupid that only one formation works, so imagine then having to say to a new manager that all non competitive games don’t count for the stats and when you are purchasing a player, you won’t get a full reading of what they are. Oh but there is way round this new manager, you can spend hours and hours creating your own stats for players. :cry:

This change actually benefits me as a manager because I could spend time and effort keeping track of young players and then purchasing them for cheap, while everyone is buying oldies but I don’t believe it’s right morally.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby billy rose » 17/08/2018, 9:49

Has this changed back to normal now.

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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Warren Freimanis » 17/08/2018, 16:06

Off topic i know but what’s happening with the yellow cards with young players

It’s getting out of hand now...for all players coming through you need two players for every position to accommodate the change.

Is there a way this can tweaked Ian? It’s frustrating when players are getting booked all the time and surely this has to change
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Neil Roberts » 18/08/2018, 1:00

I can't help thinking that there has been some crossed wires here. I can't imagine anybody asking for stats to be deleted for players.

I think all we need to know is what kind of matches a player has played in during his career.

Full International Matches
U21 International Matches
International Friendlies
Domestic 1st Team Competition Matches (League & Cup)
Domestic Competition Reserve Matches
Domestic Friendlies

Wouldn't this give us everything we want? Otherwise for a youngster being developed by playing him in friendlies for the first part of his career it would show he's not played any matches at all which would be very unhelpful.

I understand we don't have this information for previous seasons but if we start it from now eventually all player stats will become useful. All historic stats would just need to be put under league games, not a perfect way to go but like I say the info will improve over time.
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Re: End of Season 33 second part

Postby Ian Foletto » 18/08/2018, 23:39

For stats I'm trying to understand:
1- if i'm able to add a few lines of records for every player to store also friendlies and internationals
2- the impact it would have on the database

As per u21 bookings you're right Warren I promised I'd do something this end of season, and I already have all written on paper. Though unfortunately, with all stuff for new season, code to be added, end of season stuff, help new staff etc I haven't been able to and it yet. I'm sorry for this I hope to have it done soon.
In the meantime the old mentality growth formula is up so the growth should be quicker than before.

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