Crea sito
Register Login with your social network DO NOT USE YET!

**IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

User avatar
Posts: 5373
Joined: 08/01/2009, 22:30
Location: The Golly Pit

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Jon Smart » 01/09/2016, 21:31

It's great to hear things are moving in the right direction.Could I ask if you plan to extend the time a manager needs to stay at a club before moving on?Could a full season be a good idea?I'm sure there will be a high influx of new managers once the new format is ready and it would be a good time to change things.
S 13: Prem WINNERS
S 22 Champions League WINNERS
S 10,12: Prem Cup WINNERS
S 21: A1 WINNERS
S 18: A2 WINNERS
S 5,18: A Cup WINNERS
S 15: World Cup WINNERS (Scotland)
S 12,14,21: ITN Cup WINNERS
S 12,18,21: MOTS

User avatar
Posts: 1314
Joined: 08/01/2010, 15:52

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Tom Spurrier » 01/09/2016, 22:28

Neil Roberts wrote:If morale was to increase when a new manager comes in, you would have to do something to stop managers leaving their clubs and then immediately re-signing with that club just to increase morale and keep players.


Also I can see it becoming very frustrating when you buy a youngster for the future just to see him want to move clubs before he realises his potential. I've got a couple of GKs who I've got in for the future, I know I can't play them very much because if I do they are going to let in too many goals, all young GKs do. I presume I will lose them with the new system way before they reach their potential.


You'll just probably have to loan them out then Neil, I know you would want to play them yourselves but it's gunna be the only way to keep them...there morale will be high cause they get played, and you'll see how they do...it's gunna be a catch 32. Win/lose/win
Torpedo Moscow

Cardiff
Champions of C8 in season 23

Chievo Verona:
Season 16 - Champions of D6

User avatar
Posts: 1665
Joined: 10/02/2009, 0:34

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Dave Rey » 02/09/2016, 0:57

I fully support this change.

I think there has to be some finessing when it comes to how loaning will effect a player's morale and it also may be worth giving a morale boost for a more lucrative contract being offered while the player still has several weeks on their current contract -- essentially buying some temporary happiness.

But, all in all, I say make the system as realistic as the game can handle. Making the age/skill relationship even steeper on both ends of the scale than it currently is (old players get worse faster, young players get better faster) would be useful if this is implemented, as well. We'd get even healthier player churn and player development would be even more emphasized.

No matter what, though, we have to get more managers -- all the available players in the world won't save the game if there isn't anybody to buy them. The vacant C Leagues have to be made healthier for this change to actually work and the C Leagues are a mess right now. Most teams cannot be successfully managed by new players in their current states.
Cruzeiro Esporte Clube
Champions -- C6 League (Season 29)

Manager Honors:
Season 17 A2 Champions: Sheffield Utd
Season 22 B2 Runners-Up: Sheffield Utd
Season 29 C6 Champions: Cruzeiro EC
"Like a greasy chip buttie..."

User avatar
Posts: 1997
Joined: 07/12/2008, 23:34

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Neil Roberts » 04/09/2016, 23:28

Tom Spurrier wrote:
Neil Roberts wrote:If morale was to increase when a new manager comes in, you would have to do something to stop managers leaving their clubs and then immediately re-signing with that club just to increase morale and keep players.


Also I can see it becoming very frustrating when you buy a youngster for the future just to see him want to move clubs before he realises his potential. I've got a couple of GKs who I've got in for the future, I know I can't play them very much because if I do they are going to let in too many goals, all young GKs do. I presume I will lose them with the new system way before they reach their potential.


You'll just probably have to loan them out then Neil, I know you would want to play them yourselves but it's gunna be the only way to keep them...there morale will be high cause they get played, and you'll see how they do...it's gunna be a catch 32. Win/lose/win


I've popped the two GKs on the loan list, let's see if they get picked up. I'm not confident. As you say though Tom, this is the only way to try and hang onto them if the new system is brought in. If they aren't picked up though, I'll just lose them.
Neil Roberts
The Blades!!!

User avatar
Posts: 2545
Joined: 08/01/2009, 22:49
Location: Somerset

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ben Spurrier » 06/09/2016, 20:33

as dave says we need more people first to make anything work. you're exactly right neil dont get your confidence up cause there is barely anyone to loan out too
I am Batman!

Posts: 2986
Joined: 08/01/2009, 9:44

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ian Foletto » 07/09/2016, 14:05

Jon Smart wrote:It's great to hear things are moving in the right direction.Could I ask if you plan to extend the time a manager needs to stay at a club before moving on?Could a full season be a good idea?I'm sure there will be a high influx of new managers once the new format is ready and it would be a good time to change things.

I haven't thought about this Jon to be honest.
We're now working both on new site and to player views, so all other things will be looked at later when we're nearly ready.

Posts: 2986
Joined: 08/01/2009, 9:44

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ian Foletto » 07/09/2016, 14:06

Dave Rey wrote:I fully support this change.

I think there has to be some finessing when it comes to how loaning will effect a player's morale and it also may be worth giving a morale boost for a more lucrative contract being offered while the player still has several weeks on their current contract -- essentially buying some temporary happiness.

But, all in all, I say make the system as realistic as the game can handle. Making the age/skill relationship even steeper on both ends of the scale than it currently is (old players get worse faster, young players get better faster) would be useful if this is implemented, as well. We'd get even healthier player churn and player development would be even more emphasized.

No matter what, though, we have to get more managers -- all the available players in the world won't save the game if there isn't anybody to buy them. The vacant C Leagues have to be made healthier for this change to actually work and the C Leagues are a mess right now. Most teams cannot be successfully managed by new players in their current states.

Some interesting stuff Dave, thanks for posting.

Posts: 2986
Joined: 08/01/2009, 9:44

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ian Foletto » 07/09/2016, 14:12

Neil Roberts wrote:
Tom Spurrier wrote:
Neil Roberts wrote:If morale was to increase when a new manager comes in, you would have to do something to stop managers leaving their clubs and then immediately re-signing with that club just to increase morale and keep players.


Also I can see it becoming very frustrating when you buy a youngster for the future just to see him want to move clubs before he realises his potential. I've got a couple of GKs who I've got in for the future, I know I can't play them very much because if I do they are going to let in too many goals, all young GKs do. I presume I will lose them with the new system way before they reach their potential.


You'll just probably have to loan them out then Neil, I know you would want to play them yourselves but it's gunna be the only way to keep them...there morale will be high cause they get played, and you'll see how they do...it's gunna be a catch 32. Win/lose/win


I've popped the two GKs on the loan list, let's see if they get picked up. I'm not confident. As you say though Tom, this is the only way to try and hang onto them if the new system is brought in. If they aren't picked up though, I'll just lose them.


About this Neil, young players will be less likely to leave than older ones. So, they will need less matches played than older players, be it on your team or on loan.
As a general rule though, we want managers to keep the players they use, in particolar for older ones, and as in real football, who is left out for a long time, will want to leave.

User avatar
Posts: 1997
Joined: 07/12/2008, 23:34

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Neil Roberts » 07/09/2016, 21:48

I used my GKs as an example though Ian because GKs don't actually come good until they are quite old. It actually doesn't seem realistic that young GKs are so bad. Look at Gianluigi Donnarumma!
Neil Roberts
The Blades!!!

User avatar
Posts: 4420
Joined: 08/01/2009, 23:03

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Andy Summers » 15/09/2016, 22:31

Thoughts:

:arrow: The philosophy of the 'returning player' needs to be carefully considered. If the feature that stops a player returning to his previous club exists, it needs to be all-encompassing; applicable to transfers and loans. Right now the setup could be seen to favour managers who have more friends/contacts on the game - any manager with an ounce of common sense, under danger of losing a player, could easily arrange a 'friend-transfer' and immediately loan his player right back in.

In fact, if the player is sufficient quality (ie potential star GK or AM) a manager could feasibly arrange to transfer a player/players out to a donor club in a mutually-beneficial contract workaround; whether for a season, two seasons, until the point where the player is willing to return. If that possibility exists, it renders this whole idea redundant, as the best players still won't be available to market.

If you are determined to bring this idea in, Ian, I would suggest that you need to be more aggressive and either increase the time before a player is willing to return, or perhaps ensure they are never willing to return.

:arrow: Regarding players 'in their prime' sitting unused on benches, in part this is to do with how the game has always been heavily geared towards older players. I appreciate this is changing to a degree, but it is still very fair to say that not so many players are particularly capable of performing at the 18-23 (for example) age range, whereas that is different in real-world football. If players were better, younger, the metric of 'in their prime' players being stockpiled would naturally lessen.

:arrow: Free agents. I would suggest that a rethink of the allocation of free agents should accompany your changes. It is fair to say that managers doing well have always been punished to some degree; whether inability to sign free agents apart from exceptional circumstances, whether by worse youth players, now by being forced to lose players (which will likely hit more upper-level managers than lower). If we are moving towards a realistic squad-building model to enhance the market, then I think you should look to make it a fairer playing field when it comes to access to the free players. Talented free agents would gravitate more towards successful clubs. In practice, there may not be so many very-good players who end up available on the free list, but enabling the top-level clubs to bring them in would be some redress to these other changes.

:arrow: Lastly, going back to my question posted earlier, how do loans affect the willingness of players to stay at their club? If a Prem side loans a player out to an A-Level team (for instance) and he is playing regular 1st team football, does that have any positive benefit (player happy at getting high-level football), does it have no effect (player not playing for his own club, so does not help willingness to stay), or does it even have a negative effect (player becoming increasingly disassociated with his own club, because he is constantly away - ie Szczesny at Roma).

It would also be interesting to have a more clear definition of what makes a player unhappy; you've hinted at age and soa playing a part, but is this an incremental situation affecting players equally (ie would two 28 year old, soa 50s become unhappy at the same rate, in the same situation). Or does level play a part - better players less willing to be unused at lower levels? Is it something you will be looking to tie-in with Player Traits? For example, an Egotistical player would/could be far less willing to accept not being a regular player (ie Ibrahimovich). You could even look to broaden the player traits in line with these new changes with a Loyal trait, or something equivalent, where certain players are more prone to accepting a lesser role (ie Solskjaer). That would particularly work well for players who are playing at the club that promoted them - some sort of 'home-town club' loyalty situation.
Trophy Cabinet
11x Divisional Titles (6x Prem, A1, B1, C2, 2x Bundesliga)
4x Level Cup (3x Prem, A)
5x Champions League
2x ITN Cup
2x U21 World Cup (Russia, Japan)
4x Manager of the Season (S25, 27, 28, 30)

User avatar
Posts: 1464
Joined: 22/09/2013, 10:06

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Jamie Best » 16/09/2016, 8:27

Andy Summers wrote:Thoughts:

:arrow: The philosophy of the 'returning player' needs to be carefully considered. If the feature that stops a player returning to his previous club exists, it needs to be all-encompassing; applicable to transfers and loans. Right now the setup could be seen to favour managers who have more friends/contacts on the game - any manager with an ounce of common sense, under danger of losing a player, could easily arrange a 'friend-transfer' and immediately loan his player right back in.

In fact, if the player is sufficient quality (ie potential star GK or AM) a manager could feasibly arrange to transfer a player/players out to a donor club in a mutually-beneficial contract workaround; whether for a season, two seasons, until the point where the player is willing to return. If that possibility exists, it renders this whole idea redundant, as the best players still won't be available to market.

If you are determined to bring this idea in, Ian, I would suggest that you need to be more aggressive and either increase the time before a player is willing to return, or perhaps ensure they are never willing to return.


Just picking up on this point of Andy's. I've experienced something similar in another online game, what they did in the coding somehow was to add a "previous club" blocker as it were, so if the next transfer of this player involved him going back to his "previous club" then it would automatically be blocked. Effectively, a player would need to move to a second 'new' club before then being able to move to his original club. Hopefully that makes sense?!
Jamie Best
Boca Juniors & Greece

A2 League and Reserve League Champions S27
Manager of the Season S24
A2 League Champions S24
B4 Playoff Winners S23
Level B Cup Winners S23
C7 Playoff Winners S22

Posts: 2986
Joined: 08/01/2009, 9:44

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ian Foletto » 16/09/2016, 13:47

First of all Andy thanks for this post.

Andy Summers wrote:Thoughts:

:arrow: The philosophy of the 'returning player' needs to be carefully considered. If the feature that stops a player returning to his previous club exists, it needs to be all-encompassing; applicable to transfers and loans. Right now the setup could be seen to favour managers who have more friends/contacts on the game - any manager with an ounce of common sense, under danger of losing a player, could easily arrange a 'friend-transfer' and immediately loan his player right back in.

In fact, if the player is sufficient quality (ie potential star GK or AM) a manager could feasibly arrange to transfer a player/players out to a donor club in a mutually-beneficial contract workaround; whether for a season, two seasons, until the point where the player is willing to return. If that possibility exists, it renders this whole idea redundant, as the best players still won't be available to market.

If you are determined to bring this idea in, Ian, I would suggest that you need to be more aggressive and either increase the time before a player is willing to return, or perhaps ensure they are never willing to return.

The reason behind it is exactly what you say.
We haven't decided yet how long this window should be. I see your point though, and it makes sense.
I don't know if I really want that a player never goes back, but surely it can't be for half a season or a season. It must be at the very least 2, so that it becomes difficult to exchange players back and forth.

:arrow: Regarding players 'in their prime' sitting unused on benches, in part this is to do with how the game has always been heavily geared towards older players. I appreciate this is changing to a degree, but it is still very fair to say that not so many players are particularly capable of performing at the 18-23 (for example) age range, whereas that is different in real-world football. If players were better, younger, the metric of 'in their prime' players being stockpiled would naturally lessen.

very true. The speeding up of old players attribute decrease and traits were added exactly for this reason, this is where we want to go. Of course it is a long process.
Last season we sped up training a bit, my idea is to speed up training a little bit more for this end of season, plus speed up decrease for older players a bit more.
Also, players with traits will soon approach the best ages, so there should be a change of perception about this soon.
Anyway, I agree with you.

:arrow: Free agents. I would suggest that a rethink of the allocation of free agents should accompany your changes. It is fair to say that managers doing well have always been punished to some degree; whether inability to sign free agents apart from exceptional circumstances, whether by worse youth players, now by being forced to lose players (which will likely hit more upper-level managers than lower). If we are moving towards a realistic squad-building model to enhance the market, then I think you should look to make it a fairer playing field when it comes to access to the free players. Talented free agents would gravitate more towards successful clubs. In practice, there may not be so many very-good players who end up available on the free list, but enabling the top-level clubs to bring them in would be some redress to these other changes.

I know this free agents thing is much disputed. Actually there's also a wrong perception, as managers think it is due to a help to lower teams, when in fact that is almost reduced to 0. Instead, teams having few players are favourite by the engine (I think Andy added that to help new managers finding themselves with a tiny squad), and since most teams with tiny squads are in C level, it gives the false perception that this is due to the engine helping lower teams, rather than teams with few players.
I add on my list to have a thought about it and see what can be done with this before this end of season.

:arrow: Lastly, going back to my question posted earlier, how do loans affect the willingness of players to stay at their club? If a Prem side loans a player out to an A-Level team (for instance) and he is playing regular 1st team football, does that have any positive benefit (player happy at getting high-level football), does it have no effect (player not playing for his own club, so does not help willingness to stay), or does it even have a negative effect (player becoming increasingly disassociated with his own club, because he is constantly away - ie Szczesny at Roma).

It would also be interesting to have a more clear definition of what makes a player unhappy; you've hinted at age and soa playing a part, but is this an incremental situation affecting players equally (ie would two 28 year old, soa 50s become unhappy at the same rate, in the same situation). Or does level play a part - better players less willing to be unused at lower levels? Is it something you will be looking to tie-in with Player Traits? For example, an Egotistical player would/could be far less willing to accept not being a regular player (ie Ibrahimovich). You could even look to broaden the player traits in line with these new changes with a Loyal trait, or something equivalent, where certain players are more prone to accepting a lesser role (ie Solskjaer). That would particularly work well for players who are playing at the club that promoted them - some sort of 'home-town club' loyalty situation.
[/quote]

First of all I have to say one thing. I don't have all the answers for your questions, because we're right now designing it, so some issues I really don't know yet. We're trying to do them, if not we will slightly change.
This said, the idea is that a player sent on loan and playing will be happier.
At the moment, in particular with the old site, we cannot go too much in depth as we don't have a lot of stats. With the new site we will have more stats, like matches played on loan, in which division etc... so it could be easier to have different levels of happiness (like world stars players unhappy if sent to C league or something...) but that would eventually be for the future.
Now we're trying to have something easy and ready to start with, to move the game a bit.

Loyalty is not a trait, it is an hidden attribute I revealed a couple of seasons ago. Every player has a loyalty attribute, and that will surely go in the player wish to renew a contract. So 2 28 years old 50 SOA players won't have the same happiness, unless they also have the same loyalty attribute.

As per age and SOA we're still working on it. Anyway, the idea is that players < 22 will be much less inclined to want away, as they're learning and not expecting to play first team football. SOA could work in combination with age, so SOA 50 age 28, wants to play a lot. SOA 30 age 28 may accept to play less. SOA 30 age 20 accept playing friendlies as he's learning his trade.

Hope I could explain all. If you all have more ideas/concerns or whatever feel free to say. I really like this kind of posts as I always get good ideas, or realize if something that seemed good for me, comes out as not so good for others.

Posts: 2986
Joined: 08/01/2009, 9:44

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Ian Foletto » 16/09/2016, 13:49

Jamie Best wrote:Just picking up on this point of Andy's. I've experienced something similar in another online game, what they did in the coding somehow was to add a "previous club" blocker as it were, so if the next transfer of this player involved him going back to his "previous club" then it would automatically be blocked. Effectively, a player would need to move to a second 'new' club before then being able to move to his original club. Hopefully that makes sense?!

It does Jamie. I'm only thinking if it's maybe too harsh that a player never wants to come back. I don't know yet, still thinking about it and hearing your opinions.

User avatar
Posts: 1314
Joined: 08/01/2010, 15:52

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Tom Spurrier » 16/09/2016, 16:02

Don't know if this has been said before regarding the happiness of a player. But would it be possible to have in place something like what they do in Fifa...whereas you get messages sent from players rather than it just being on their player page. That way, managers will actually know when a player is feeling down and wants more game time.

Only saying this cause I know there are a few managers at the moment who don't spend much time on here, and probably don't even look at the morale/player views
Torpedo Moscow

Cardiff
Champions of C8 in season 23

Chievo Verona:
Season 16 - Champions of D6

User avatar
Posts: 1997
Joined: 07/12/2008, 23:34

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Neil Roberts » 19/09/2016, 0:49

Surely you can't have a rule where a player can't return to his old club unless he's been away for a certain length of time, it would have to be that he can't go to the old manager.....wouldn't it?

What if a new manager takes over a team and tries to sign a player that has played for his team before fairly recently, wouldn't it cause confusion and frustration if the player wouldn't sign?

I just see this Player Views thing as something that should only be brought in as a last resort as it is open for people to bend the rules or those rules are going to be unfair in certain circumstances.

I'd be bringing in the new site, advertise the game and fix the 343 issue. Then I'd look at making players get better quicker when they are young and worse quicker when they are old. This has to happen for GKs as they don't get good until they are quite old and we can't have them immediately getting worse again. Do all this and see what happens with the transfer market when you have lots more managers and players naturally becoming less useful as they age. If all this doesn't work to increase transfer activity (which I'm positive it would) then bring in the Player View thing.
Neil Roberts
The Blades!!!

User avatar
Posts: 4420
Joined: 08/01/2009, 23:03

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Andy Summers » 19/09/2016, 13:05

Neil Roberts wrote:Surely you can't have a rule where a player can't return to his old club unless he's been away for a certain length of time, it would have to be that he can't go to the old manager.....wouldn't it?

What if a new manager takes over a team and tries to sign a player that has played for his team before fairly recently, wouldn't it cause confusion and frustration if the player wouldn't sign?


At a guess, I think this would be much more difficult to code Neil.

Ian Foletto wrote:I know this free agents thing is much disputed. Actually there's also a wrong perception, as managers think it is due to a help to lower teams, when in fact that is almost reduced to 0. Instead, teams having few players are favourite by the engine (I think Andy added that to help new managers finding themselves with a tiny squad), and since most teams with tiny squads are in C level, it gives the false perception that this is due to the engine helping lower teams, rather than teams with few players.
I add on my list to have a thought about it and see what can be done with this before this end of season.


In essence, I think we area meaning the same thing and I didn't explain myself very well. I appreciate that the squad size is the overriding factor, but the effect is that the lower-level clubs generally have a limited number of players, whilst upper-end clubs are often maxed out. This currently almost always ensures that the best free agents are snapped up to the lower levels (and quite often 'lost' to ITN, as these are often more transient/new managers not at the club long enough to trade these players). This feeds the perception of the 'lower level benefit' - the only occasion I can immediately remember that a top team ended up with a particularly promising free agent was Real Socieded nabbing Alexander Fernberg, and I think only because Hugh had a squad of around 32-35 at the time.

A rebalancing of the squad-size factor would be a positive change and enable all managers to use this feature. It would also bring more of a skill element in for lower-level managers; having to choose their offer wisely, rather than cherry-picking the best available player, knowing they stand a high percentage chance of success if they have a small squad.
Trophy Cabinet
11x Divisional Titles (6x Prem, A1, B1, C2, 2x Bundesliga)
4x Level Cup (3x Prem, A)
5x Champions League
2x ITN Cup
2x U21 World Cup (Russia, Japan)
4x Manager of the Season (S25, 27, 28, 30)

User avatar
Posts: 1464
Joined: 22/09/2013, 10:06

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Jamie Best » 23/11/2016, 10:35

Is the morale of all players still being reset after MD4 as it has been previously?
Jamie Best
Boca Juniors & Greece

A2 League and Reserve League Champions S27
Manager of the Season S24
A2 League Champions S24
B4 Playoff Winners S23
Level B Cup Winners S23
C7 Playoff Winners S22

User avatar
Posts: 1464
Joined: 22/09/2013, 10:06

Re: **IMPORTANT PREVIEW** Player views and transfer market

Postby Jamie Best » 27/11/2016, 10:38

Jamie Best wrote:Is the morale of all players still being reset after MD4 as it has been previously?

Any news on this? I have a player who has very poor morale despite getting regular games out on loan, but is now suspended for 2 club matches so I won't be able to play him in any of the friendlies to get his morale back up in time before his contract ends
Jamie Best
Boca Juniors & Greece

A2 League and Reserve League Champions S27
Manager of the Season S24
A2 League Champions S24
B4 Playoff Winners S23
Level B Cup Winners S23
C7 Playoff Winners S22

Previous

Return to End Of Season 28

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest